Nov 13 2009
Comments, Trees and Celebration… It’s not just for Christians
“Curious how many of you out there have had a similar experience. Any things you would now like to claim as your own, and not as a result of God randomly choosing to make it happen for you?”
I’m curious to know why you are curious about this.
Are you seeking validation?
Also, now that you are an atheist, are you still going to take Christmas day off this year? What about the exchanging of gifts? Are you still going to have a tree and all, or are you in boycott mode? Just curious
Mark
This is a comment I received, and it got me thinking about why people seem to think that having a tree is solely a Christian tradition, and why taking Christmas Day off is considered celebrating the Christian religion. So, let me answer the comment above point by point.
- I’m curious, because I’m sure there are others out there who have gone through the same thing I have and have stories to share. I’ve been proven correct. I don’t need validation for what I think about things coming together as I’ve been on both sides of the fence and have hard proof through my own experience.
- I’m not an atheist. I have been decently clear on this point on this blog. I don’t believe there is one guy in the sky, nor do I believe the Bible is the perfect word from this guy in the sky. I believe the Bible is a historical text, at best. Now, that being said, I’m not sure that there is nothing out there either. I’m not convinced that there isn’t some sort of energy that connects all of us. I’m not convinced there is, either.
- Yes, I will be taking Christmas Day off this year… it is a nationwide holiday… one that my Company pays me to take off. It is a great time to spend with family and friends, and I treat it as such.
- Again, yes, I will have a tree. Trees and evergreen and holly, etc. are NOT just Christian traditions and in fact many started well before Christianity as a celebration of the winter solstice. Many pagan religions also used evergreen trimmings. The Romans used holly wreaths and evergreen clippings in a ritual to celebrate Saturn. (http://www.religioustolerance.org/xmas_tree.htm)
- Yes, I will exchange gifts, meaningful gifts. I like to give gifts all year round, I find that at this time of year, I’m able to see members of my family that I don’t see any other time and it is a great time to give them gifts in person. Giving gifts is not something that is just for Christians, you know.
So, I’m curious Mark (and any others who feel the same way he does about this topic), do you know that you aren’t even celebrating Christ’s birthday in December… as it has been pretty well agreed that he was most likely born in the spring? Will you admit that there are MANY celebrations that take place this time of year that started well before Christmas that are as celebratory as Christmas is?
Why are some Christians so up tight about other celebrations taking place? They have been going on for many centuries… before Christ was on the planet. Let everyone celebrate, enjoy their families, enjoy the turn of the season, enjoy their religious traditions. I see the joy that my Christian friends get from the holiday, and it is equal to the joy I get from the holiday. Why is it that some Christians think they are the only people on the planet who get to celebrate something in the winter? Get over yourselves… maybe you’ll be able to celebrate more if you just focus on what it is you’re doing, and not so much on what others are doing.
14 responses so far
Thanks for your great post. I am thrilled to have found at least ONE blog where the author is not vitriolic, immature, and incendiary. I have responded to your points below:
>I’m not convinced that there isn’t some sort of energy that connects all of us. I’m not
>convinced there is, either.
“Some sort of energy” .. is that your definition of LOVE?
>Trees and evergreen and holly, etc. are NOT just Christian traditions and in fact many
> started well before Christianity as a celebration of the winter solstice. Many pagan
>religions also used evergreen trimmings. The Romans used holly wreaths and
> evergreen clippings in a ritual to celebrate Saturn.
Exactly. They had their own very specific reasons for having evergreens (pagan religion, winter solstice, etc). What is your reason for having a tree? (I presume you are NOT part of a pagan religion or celebrating winter solstice
)
>Yes, I will exchange gifts, meaningful gifts. I like to give gifts all year round, I find that
> at this time of year, I’m able to see members of my family that I don’t see any other
>time and it is a great time to give them gifts in person. Giving gifts is not something that
> is just for Christians, you know.
But… life has no meaning without God, so what is the purpose of giving a meaningful gift??
>So, I’m curious Mark (and any others who feel the same way he does about this topic),
> do you know that you aren’t even celebrating Christ’s birthday in December… as it has
>been pretty well agreed that he was most likely born in the spring? Will you admit that
> there are MANY celebrations that take place this time of year that started well before
>Christmas that are as celebratory as Christmas is?
Ah, but WE, Christ’s followers, have AGREED to celebrate his birthday in December. Hence it is the day we celebrate his birthday. December 25 is CHRISTmas Day. It’s a Christian holiday and always has been. Its purpose is to celebrate the birth of Christmas. I find it interesting that those who are screaming for God’s completely removal from “the state” are still ok with Christmas being a federal holiday.
>Why are some Christians so up tight about other celebrations taking place? They have
>been going on for many centuries… before Christ was on the planet. Let everyone
>celebrate, enjoy their families, enjoy the turn of the season, enjoy their religious
>traditions. I see the joy that my Christian friends get from the holiday, and it is equal to
>the joy I get from the holiday.
I’m not uptight, I’m just saying it’s illogical. If you, a non theist, had a holiday called “Anti God Gift Giving Day,” I can assure you I would NOT celebrate it, nor would I give gifts to loved ones on that day, nor would I erect anything symbolic of that holiday of yours in my home. Why? Because I have principles. My principle holds that I abstain from anything that is not consistent with my beliefs. Therefore I can not celebrate your holiday because it’s based on something that I do not believe in. So where are YOUR principles? You don’t believe in Christ, yet you yield for his birthday? I find that conflicting and strange. But it DOESN’T make me uptight. You can do whatever you want. I’m sure the Lord will be thrilled that you chose to GIVE on his birthday. He is all about giving, you know.
Also, I can see why the joy you feel is equal to the joy your friends feel. You obviously have a good, loving heart. It is filled with the spirit of love, even though you deny its presence. Even when you are unfaithful to it, it remains faithful to you. Now that’s what I call LOVE
>Why is it that some Christians think they are the only people on the planet who get to
>celebrate something in the winter?
Sorry, but this makes no sense. It’s a CHRISTIAN holiday celebrating the birth of Christ. What don’t you understand about that?
Why not start your own holiday that is consistent with your own belief system?
>maybe you’ll be able to celebrate more if you just focus on what it is you’re doing, and
>not so much on what others are doing.
Oh I will have no trouble celebrating. I’m thrilled you’ll be celebrating too. Actually we’ll both be giving gifts to loved one and spending time with them for the same exact reason (LOVE), it’s just that you think LOVE is “some sort of energy” and I think love is GOD. Either way, it’s love, and I couldn’t be happier we’ll both be celebrating it!
Peace,
Mark
I have to assume you comment was pointed at me as you recently boycotted my blog.
Is my blog incendiary? Yes. When someone challenges the religious belief system of other people, they tend to get upset. And it results in very interesting discussion.
Am I vitriolic? Yes, I am bitter that I wasted so much of my life worshiping an imaginary god. Now I share my thoughts and experiences with others.
Am I immature? Yes, I believe all men stop maturing at about age 13. You’re just in denial.
But… life has no meaning without God, so what is the purpose of giving a meaningful gift??
The word “meaningful” when modifying “gift” has no relation to the “meaning of life” nor does it have anything to do with any god or the absence of gods. The meaning in the gift is social.
A gift has meaning to the giver and the recipient when it serves as a tangible expression of mutual knowledge and caring. It requires that the giver know what the recipient likes and perhaps needs, and his or her taste, philosophy, personality, etc.; and the gift must be one which is appropriate for the giver to give to the recipient.
It is almost impossible for strangers to exchange meaningful gifts.
So where are YOUR principles? You don’t believe in Christ, yet you yield for his birthday? I find that conflicting and strange.
It’s a CHRISTIAN holiday celebrating the birth of Christ. What don’t you understand about that?
Religious holidays are not exclusively religious. They also have a social component: the interactions among the participants which have nothing to do with religion, which are based on family and friendship. And where a large majority of the population are of the same religion (in America, anyway), the holidays of that religion acquire a secular aspect as well.
Families and other social groups do not typically exclude from these celebrations those members who have discarded religion or who have chosen a different belief system. Those members attend the celebrations for the sake of the social interaction although they may abstain from the explicit religious ritual.
As an analogy, consider: If I attend a friend’s wedding in a church, synagogue, or mosque, I am not celebrating the religion of that institution; I am celebrating a particular happy event in my friend’s life. There is likely to be a religious ceremony in connection with the marriage; I can be as polite a guest during this as during the rest of the event. It does not compromise my principles to recognize that other people have religious beliefs.
The continued use of Christmas decorations in a non-theist’s own house and the giving of gifts at Christmas time probably reflect the social and secular traditions that have developed around the holiday in our culture.
There are, in any case, some philosophical principles attributed to Jesus to which anyone might subscribe and which anyone might choose to celebrate without accepting the divine and magical characteristics which are also ascribed to him. It is possible that Jesus was a great man and an important philosopher, even though he was not a god. It would be a shame to throw out the good ideas with the bad. So we can recognize that he made some real contribution to human society without worshiping him.
“Its purpose is to celebrate the birth of Christmas”
Oops.. I meant: Its purpose is to celebrate the birth of Christ
Hi Mark… thank you for taking the time to respond. Won’t copy all of your points here, but will respond.
1. No, my definition of LOVE is much more than ’some kind of energy’ and I think I will write this down as a potential topic for a future blog post.
2. My honest answer for having a tree… I like it. I like the look of it, I like the smell of it and it all reminds me of fun times with family and friends. It is not a religious symbol for me, but rather something I just like to have around my house at this time of year (I guess my answer is like a parent telling a kid, because I said so).
3. Life does have meaning for me without believing in the God of the Bible. There is nothing more to argue on this point, as you believe in God, and I don’t, and we both feel that life has meaning. We’ll just keep saying this over and over to each other, and it will go nowhere productive.
4. Okay, you’ve got me on the point that Christians have agreed to celebrate in December.
5. In terms of a State holiday… it probably shouldn’t be one. I think because this is the date that has been taken off for so long, it would be impossible to make it either ‘flexible’ or changed to another date, or taken away altogether. Due to other celebrations, I think it’s nice to have the time off… I know that where I work, they are flexible and will give you time off at another time if that is what is needed for your personal beliefs. I think we’re at a stale mate on this one, as I definitely see your point (believe me, I do), but I think it’s just not one worth fighting. Plus, I like the fact that at this time of year I can take three vacation days and get practically 10 days off… so let’s leave well enough alone.
6. I choose to see my family, who are still mostly believers, and enjoy their company and exchange gifts because I love them, and want to spend time with them. I’m willing to compromise on the date if it means I get their time and company. If none of us were Christians, would this be the one day we got together… I don’t know. Perhaps it would because we all get the time off, but, perhaps it wouldn’t be. I know for my husband and I, we exchange gifts whenever we want… sometimes on New Year’s after seeing everyone. Why, because to the two of us… the day doesn’t matter, it’s just a nice time of year to come together and exchange gifts, take a breath and slow down for a bit.
This is a very interesting topic, in general. Wonder what others will have to say.
Thanks for your response. One thing I wanted to address..
“Life does have meaning for me without believing in the God of the Bible. There is nothing more to argue on this point, as you believe in God, and I don’t, and we both feel that life has meaning. ”
I didn’t want to argue angrily, just sensibly. C
If we can agree “meaning” refers to the end, purpose, or significance of something, then what is the meaning of your life? Can you at least state how life has meaning to you?
Put another way, if life is a play, and you are a character in the play, you know your part and thus your lines and all, but what is the play itself about? Surely you must have some sort of idea about the play, Yes? I’m just curious to know what it is
Life certainly has meaning without God. Why else would anyone be afraid of death? Because they value their life and find meaning with loved ones and through their chosen profession and activities.
Just because their isn’t an eternity waiting after death doesn’t somehow make life worthless. It only makes it shorter.
Belief in God actually devalues life on earth. In Christian theology, life on earth is a mere temporary stay in a horrible place as we await paradise. So your life is only valuable if you’re good enough and faithful enough to get into heaven. Otherwise earth is a place where a fallen angel freely tempts and torments us before we’re tossed into hell for eternity.
My life is valuable to me, and I enjoy living it in a reality void of ancient superstition. Who wouldn’t want to live forever? But praying to invisible gods and faith in the words of primitive men doesn’t automatically make it true.
By the way, I also celebrate Christmas. Regardless of the religious source of the holiday, it has become a secular day for family to gather and spend time together. Why would I care if the holiday began to celebrate two completely different Gospel stories for the birth of a Jewish guy? Presents are fun, holiday food is good and wine is always enjoyable. I’m sure you’ll see this as lacking “principles.” But only from your religious perspective. Life is what you make of it, and most people spend way too much time worrying about things that don’t matter.
Hi Mark… my comment was not meant to come off as angry, just to state that we will need to agree to disagree on that one.
As to your question… my life has meaning (as you have defined above) because after I’m gone, I have left my ‘life’s work’ on this planet. I hope that what I do now, has a lasting, positive impact on the world. On the people, the environment, etc. That what I’ve done has brought the next generation something better than what was here before me.
Really, that’s it. Whether I believe I go somewhere after this or not, leaving a positive impact on the planet is what is important to me.
“leaving a positive impact on the planet is what is important to me.”
I don’t follow you at all. What is ‘positive’ in this context? As opposed to what, negative? With no God, you don’t get to use these words in your arguments because you don’t subscribe to the idea of morality, and hence there is no “good” or “bad,” there is only customs and culture. Hence your contributions to this round blob can not be qualitative (good or bad) because without a model of moral supremacy in which to measure them against, this thing you and your contemporaries call “human goodness” is dead. Why? Because God is dead. Remember what Nietzsche said? God is dead. You killed him.
If that isn’t enough, from a scientific standpoint, what do you care about this round blob? Your contemporaries tell us its lifespan is finite. I just heard Christ Hitchens say a star exploded every second, and eventually our star (sun) will explode, too. Hence in this way of thinking this accidental blob is nothing but a mere grain of unremarkable sand on an endless beach of planets, many of which probably sustain life (and, according to your mentors, life more intelligent than ours—even though not a shred of evidence exists to support the idea that lifeforms supposedly millions of years more mature than us have attempted to colonize outside their own galaxy).
How perfectly ignorant of you to impose your altruism on this evolutionary process which–if it had the ability–would not even recognize you as anything more than a random mutation no more important to its “progress” (with an end goal of total destruction) than a common pig.
Let me see if I understand this argument. According to you, if Leaving Religion, in her professional capacity, contributes in some way to the efforts of a team that finds a universal cure for cancer or a technique for regenerating a damaged pancreas or some other advance in human knowledge, no one can count her contribution as a “positive impact” because she does not believe in God. Any believer on the team can count his or her efforts as “positive” or “good”, but atheists or agnostics “don’t get to use these words” because you think that they “don’t subscribe to the idea of morality”. You posit that somehow the believers’ contributions can be measured against “a model of moral supremacy”, but the non-theists contributions to the same effort cannot.
We have seen by means of a hypothetical of a very good deed that this idea is nonsense. On the contrary, for any action, big or small, the result is either good or bad, positive or negative, according to its effect without regard to the religion or lack thereof of the agent.
In this topic, it does not matter whether the impersonal Universe recognizes anyone as significant. The eventual exhaustion of the Sun is irrelevant. Nietzsche is irrelevant.
****BeAttitude said “I have to assume you comment was pointed at me as you recently boycotted my blog.”
Nope. Was referring to blogs far more vitriolic than yours. Yours frustrates me for another reason, and that is because you cannibalize the Bible to mean whatever you wish for it to mean to suit your given mood for the day.
****Beattitude said “Is my blog incendiary? Yes. When someone challenges the religious belief system of other people, they tend to get upset. And it results in very interesting discussion.”
I would agree your blog is provocative, but not in the way you think it is.
****Beatiitude said: “Am I vitriolic? Yes, I am bitter that I wasted so much of my life worshiping an imaginary god. Now I share my thoughts and experiences with others.”
You are bitter that you subscirbed to the idea that you should love your neighbor as you love yourself??? You’re bitter about that? Wow. Apparently you’ve found a new one. “Degrade your neighbor’s beliefs and see how he reacts.” Reminds me of playing doorbell ditch as a kid. Curious: Why don’t you use your real name on your blog? Kind of hurts your credibility when you are anonymous…
****Beattitude said “Am I immature? Yes, I believe all men stop maturing at about age 13. You’re just in denial.
”
LOL. Where do you come up with this stuff? 13? Your poor wife.
Be said: “Life certainly has meaning without God. Why else would anyone be afraid of death? Because they value their life and find meaning with loved ones and through their chosen profession and activities.”
So in other words: Life has meaning because we find meaning with our loved ones and our chosen profession. Thus we fear death because we do not want to deprive our loved ones and the consumers of our given professions our VALUE as suppliers in their lives.
This makes no sense whatsoever. If this were true we would have no homeless people. They would have killed themselves off a long time ago. Most have no loved ones and no professions, yet they still fear death just like you do, if not more.
Have you considered being an agnostic for a while? It seems to me you’re not asking questions any longer as you r blog purports. You seem to have formulated an opinion on everything without even assessing your own rationale. Why not ask some more questions in a polite manner as your blog originally set out to do, and await the evidence before jumping to conclusions?
Ber said “Just because their isn’t an eternity waiting after death doesn’t somehow make life worthless. It only makes it shorter.”
What do you mean by “eternity waiting after death?” You make life and eternity sound like two different things. Is this an idea you got from the Bible or a pastor or…? I would be interested to know.
As for this life having meaning without God, I don’t know what meaning your referring to. What does life MEAN without God? Nothing. It is without meaning. It is here today, and gone tomorrow. Your idea of meaning comes from the impression of Christianity on our society. You think just because your scrawled “darkness” on your cell wall that somehow the light is gone. It is not. It is a part of you. You will either go down fighting it like a swim against a million mile current, or you will begin swimming with it again. Just “be’ing” and “passing time” is not an option as you have already found. Face it your blog started as an innocent quest for knowledge through asking of poignant questions for discussion, but it has now turned into an attack on God. See how that works? We’re either on one side or the other. No one rides the fence for too long on this one. (By the way this is all by design
)
Be said: “Belief in God actually devalues life on earth. In Christian theology, life on earth is a mere temporary stay in a horrible place as we await paradise.
Where in the world did you get this idea? What “Christian theology” have you been reading? My God lowered himself in humility to the earth and conquered death for me so that I might “have life and life more abdundantly.” God’s beauty ABOUNDS on this beautiful planet in everything that is GOOD. God’s love is everywhere. This life is not “horrible” in the minds of any Christian I know. It is glorious, and only a small taste of the next chapter of it.
Be said “So your life is only valuable if you’re good enough and faithful enough to get into heaven. Otherwise earth is a place where a fallen angel freely tempts and torments us before we’re tossed into hell for eternity.”
Absolutely FALSE on every level. In Christianity EVERY life is of immense value–even the lives of those who reject God, and even the lives of those whose lives are taken before God has a chance to breathe life into them. Furthermore, no one is “tossed” into hell. Hell is a place people freely choose to go. Picture a left door and a right door. Choose the right door and you choose light; choose the left door and you choose darkness. God doesn’t torture anyone. They choose to torture themselves. Hell is very simply the ultimate outcome for those who reject God and live their lives in opposition to him without repentance. Picture a life with no love, no warmth, no light, no life (all the things that God represents), and you have pictured hell. Many of us have experienced it on earth after losing loved ones, heartbreak, war. We’ve already been given a taste of both heaven and hell. I choose heaven. You can have hell—-but I really hope you choose differently.
>strong>Be said “My life is valuable to me, and I enjoy living it in a reality void of ancient superstition. Who wouldn’t want to live forever? But praying to invisible gods and faith in the words of primitive men doesn’t automatically make it true.”
You call **LOVE** “ancient superstition?
The word of “primitive men”?? Words like “I love you”??
Be said, “By the way, I also celebrate Christmas. Regardless of the religious source of the holiday, it has become a secular day for family to gather and spend time together. Why would I care if the holiday began to celebrate two completely different Gospel stories for the birth of a Jewish guy? Presents are fun, holiday food is good and wine is always enjoyable. I’m sure you’ll see this as lacking “principles.” But only from your religious perspective. Life is what you make of it, and most people spend way too much time worrying about things that don’t matter.”
PLEASE don’t get me wrong: I LOVE that you all “celebrate” CHRISTmas. I’d be the one without principles if I didn’t
Peace,
Mark
Mark, you’ve got it wrong. I’m pretty sure the blogger and other atheists/agnostics/religious nones do not celebrate Christmas. They celebrate friends and family on a day that other people celebrate a religious holiday.
Can one celebrate their own birthday on December 25th? Can one celebrate an anniversary on December 25th? You make it seem as though every December 25th celebration must be about your own religious holiday…how ethnocentric.